12:57:55 From  Steve Salmony  to  Everyone:
	Best to All. Thanks to Jack.  sesalmony@aol.com

13:36:51 From  Paul Beckwith  to  Everyone:
	Jack, I am quite sure that you are following Elon Musk's plans to build a sustainable civilization on Mars, and NASA is looking at the Moon.  Please let us know your thoughts.

13:54:00 From  William Rees  to  Everyone:
	The 2nd Law of thermodynamics implies that no recycling process can be 100% efficient--there is always some "leakage" of material and all energy flows are unidirectional and irreversible.

13:56:38 From  Meg Sears  to  Everyone:
	Bill’s right, where is entropy?

13:58:43 From  Peter Mackinnon  to  Everyone:
	How is this conversion of today's civilization to the one envisage going to be paid for and by who and by when and is this a model for America only?

14:10:16 From  John Meyer  to  Everyone:
	Comment:  Love the use of energy tokens as a means of exchange.  Real money is the same premise as www.theperfectcurrency.org.  Burn your Bitcoins!

14:12:29 From  John Meyer  to  Everyone:
	Comment:  I would have thought the hydro electric capacity of Norway and Sweden would have been enough to sustain 10 million people in agriculturally rich France.

14:20:33 From  Peter Mackinnon  to  Everyone:
	How is this somewhat utopian vision of civilization going to be governed?

14:23:28 From  Gordon Kubanek  to  Everyone:
	Dictatorship.  Democracy is a luxury of excess wealth

14:25:05 From  John Meyer  to  Everyone:
	Energy slaves are not conscious and skilled workers, they are an energetic representation of a workforce.  Workers are required to make decisions and do work while the representation of energy slaves is the energy that enables that worker to do work.  No worker, no matter what the capacity of the energy slaves, no work gets done.

14:26:00 From  William Rees  to  Everyone:
	Jack, you have created a mind-boggling imaginary future but totally mechanical civilization.  I suppose there are no limits on imagination, but what about reality, particularly real human behaviour?  We cannot get people to believe in CoViD-19 or climate change and behave accordingly--or even obey traffic laws.  The question is HOW do you get the 337 million people of the US which by some accounts is on the brink of civil war to agree to shrinking to 10 million people with enormous constraints on their behaviour and life-styles.  If you can't, what's the point?

14:29:12 From  louisr  to  Everyone:
	Ditto of W Rees.
	Were any social scientists included in this project?  Seems like many (unrealistic) assumptions are made regarding human behavior and the 'contraction to 10M' without global war and destruction.  And what happened at all the nuclear plants around the world once they were abandoned?

14:29:35 From  Steven B Kurtz  to  Everyone:
	Adding to Bill’s skepticism...Humans are clever, and hierarchy is unlikely to remain unexpressed. Those in power can’t be expected to be ‘selfless.’ No human society I’m aware of beyond small tribes managed to control hierarchy.

14:34:15 From  Phil Reilly  to  Everyone:
	What lessons can be learned by the failure at Biosphere2?

14:35:43 From  William Rees  to  Everyone:
	Humans cannot replicate the complexity of real ecosystems at scale.

14:40:03 From  William Rees  to  Everyone:
	Contracting from 7.8 billion to 50 million people (How?) constitutes collapse.

14:43:48 From  Mike Nickerson  to  Everyone:
	While speculation, what would happen if we recognized that life has been thriving on Earth of a billion years.  Before humans, life forms didn’t mine the Earth’s crust and all waste was food of other life forms.  Is there not an alternative model here where we could live well without trashing our planet?

14:52:24 From  Ted Manning  to  Everyone:
	In this "game" the Game Master seems to have absolute powers.  I share Bill Rees's question regarding how the rulers get anyone to buy in and or follow the rules.

14:55:50 From  Gabriela Gref Innes  to  Everyone:
	To get from here to there...generally could be through pandemic, wars, and natural disasters...real or imagined.

14:59:11 From  Peter Mackinnon  to  Everyone:
	There are dozens of illegal air horns blasting in downtown Ottawa as I type!!!

15:00:07 From  Paul Beckwith  to  Everyone:
	Peter, the police took their potties.

15:01:11 From  Paul Beckwith  to  Art Hunter(Direct Message):
	Repost: Jack, I am quite sure that you are following Elon Musk's plans to build a sustainable civilization on Mars, and NASA is looking at the Moon. Please let us know your thoughts.

15:05:42 From  William Rees  to  Everyone:
	Every American and Canadian has 150-200 'energy slaves' working 24/7 to produce his/her goods and services. (That's a minimal estimate.)

15:07:22 From  Raymond Leury  to  Everyone:
	Why do you limit energy sources to hydro?  Why not include wind and solar which now provide much more energy then they consume in their manufacture?

15:17:52 From  William Rees  to  Everyone:
	How many people could the damaged ecosphere support if we had to "go back"?  Also, if 7.8 billion people tried to "live off the land" they would likely eliminate all wildlife, forest, etc., i.e. destroy every accessible ecosystem.

15:20:59 From  Peter Mackinnon  to  Everyone:
	Elon Musk attended Queen's U in Engineering.

15:22:45 From  William Rees  to  Everyone:
	We  cannot yet replicate viable ecosystems in experimental situations on Earth--how to do it on the moon Mars or other planets?  Musk and his ilk are wasting valuable resources that might be better expended on fixing the planet.  Let Musk show us how to create and an enclosed self-producing ecosystem on Earth capable of supporting say, 10 people, before he tries it anywhere else.  He will die before he succeeds.

15:23:40 From  Zack Jacobson  to  Everyone: 
	We don't need to wait for fusion--fission will carry us in the meantime.

15:24:06 From  William Rees  to  Everyone:
	The worst climate on Earth is more hospitable than the best on MARS.  Musk's companies don't make any money.  Even Tesla is supported by government and other incentives.

15:29:06 From  Virginia Hammon  to  Everyone:
	Could it be that the fundamental change must be from a worldview of domination (patriarchy, hierarchy, solutions, and controls from a technocratic elite, cause effect two-dimensionality) to a collaborative, intersectional, system, partnership model?  When we look from the former view, we envision solutions that replicate that model.  When we recognize and implement the practices and values of a partnership model, we will develop as yet unimagined solutions.  The dramatic increase in information connectivity and spread a Renaissance of innovation is visible in many fields.

15:30:01 From  Paul Beckwith  to  Everyone:
	My video posted last night on Musk and the concept of solar sunshades.  https://youtu.be/CBmwbZu_pTk

15:30:51 From  John Meyer  to  Everyone:
	One note on hope with a possible a Pearl Harbour moment.

15:32:38 From  Paul Beckwith  to  Everyone:
	Musk’s companies now make money, and have won enormous contracts with NASA, the US military, foreign governments, etc.  

15:34:08 From  Paul Beckwith  to  Everyone:
	Musk was down to $30 M in 2008 and on the verge of bankruptcy; now is worth $300 B and has a likely path to $1 T.

15:34:42 From  William Rees  to  Everyone:
	That's just a continuation of his dependence on government.  Last year, Tesla lost $700 million once one removes non-market incentives.

15:35:29 From  Dave Dougherty  to  Everyone:
	https://www.resilience.org/resilience-author/alice-friedemann/

15:37:57 From  Paul Beckwith  to  Everyone:
	Nothing wrong with winning government contracts to revolutionize the car industry.  Those incentives are available to any company smart enough to do something to electrify transportation.

15:42:53 From  Mike Nickerson  to  Everyone:
	Serfdom would be very different if the people didn’t have to give away half or more of their produce.

15:43:27 From  Jon Legg  to  Everyone:
	I'd like to reduce Bill Rees' comment to a more simplistic statement.  For all the work you have done on your model, I believe that you are neglecting human behaviour.  Things will deteriorate long before the next century.  It will be messy, in terms of deaths.  One question, and only one, is whether what remains after we have lost a few billion people, will be able to pick up and start up and keep going.

16:00:38 From  Steve Salmony  to  Everyone:
	Remarkable discussion.  I wish for us to generate one day a reality-oriented plan of action, a way forward that appears viable.  Wonderful effort. Thanks again, Jack.

16:04:21 From  Raymond Leury  to  Everyone:
	There is a climate march on March 25th in Ottawa that it would be nice for some of us to join.

16:04:59 From  Raymond Leury  to  Everyone:
	Global Climate Strike: March 25th, noon at McNabb Park.